Forums Erbium Lasers General Erbium Discussion Some principles photographed

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  • #6162 Reply

    brucesown
    Spectator

    Hi Glenn

    Interesting case, thanks for sharing.  I’ve had my DELight for 6 weeks now.  I broke a couple of 600 micron tips in the first two weeks and was a bit gun shy, but am contemplating taking out a brand new 400 micron tip tomorrow.  Until I get a feel for these tips, how much would you recommend reducing the power to get equivalent ablation to the 600’s I am becoming used to.  

    #6158 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Hi Bruce and a hearty welcome to my fellow BCer!!

    Congrats on the Delight, and what a great question. Hey first off are you using magnification and if so how much. I will be honest, many times now I use the smaller 400 micron tip for everything. I like the length of it compared to the 600 and also the cutting speed but I will say that at 10X mag (even 6.4X) I have greater control by being able to judge when it is to close to the tooth structure and to avoid accidental breakage by banging into the tooth or using it like a bur.

    Remember its non contact in nature!!

    It will definitely cut faster than a 600 but it will create more sensitivity at the same settings.

    In general I would reduce the mj setting by 1/3.

    My adjustments come on the MJ setting so with a case where I was using a 600 micron tip to create a bevel at 30 Hz and 60mj, I may drop to 30 Hz and 40 mj.

    For enamel if I was at 25Hz and 240 mj , then I might go to 25Hz and 160 mj (drop it by 80 mj).

    I will say that be careful not to drag the tip across enamel and to widen the cavosurface area to get water flow down to the depths of your prep, otherwise you can cut a narrow trough fast with this tip and not enough water will get to the site which leads to charring, pain, and eventually stalling out of the unit as it wont cut.

    Hope that helps and if the patient is anesthetized then it is not a problem use them at full settings but be careful dragging the tips.

    In addition, I think the best cases are small occlusals (diagnodent readings below 40) and what I do is use the 600 first just to create a little width to the prep and then go in with slightly reduced settings with the 400 micron tip to get into the deeper areas. This is where the tip shines.

    I like this tip ALOT but remember that magnification is essential to the longevity of it !!

    Glenn

    #6163 Reply

    brucesown
    Spectator

    Hi Glenn

    Thanks for the advice, used the tip extensively today with your guidelines with quite good success.  One quick question.  I hadn’t known about charing preventing ablation.  Are you creating a water poor area in the enamel which is resistant to ablation, or is there some other explaination.  Does the area appear charred like charred gingiva would?

    Thanks as always for your guidance.  I think you have done more for me through your posts here than a year of lectures could.  

    Cheers from the Island

    #6159 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Hi Bruce…….cheers from the mainland.

    YOu are bang on with respect to the charring. You will get a beige or slightly darker brown on the dentin if you dont get enough water down into the ablation area, and then it will eventually get black. Take an extracted root and take an old tip and cut a straight channel down into the dentin. You will see what happens…..brown dentin.

    I think it is very kind of you to make those remarks but I will tell you that in all honesty it really is just the scope that has given me the ability to make some judgements not based on what I feel, or what I think, but what I see is happening.

    I can tell you that I tried alot of different techniques in the beginning and followed the threads here in the beginning. If you want some interesting reading, check out the early threads on this forum.

    Its really weird to see how far we have come since the early days.

    Hope all is well and again continued success with the 400 micron tip…….its my favorite tip.

    With that in mind I use primarily 5 tips

    80 degree 600 micron tip
    80 degree 400 micron tip
    Chisel tip
    Soft tissue tip
    Endo tip (usually 300 micron)

    thats basically it…….and of these really only the chisel is the only one I use on the contra angle.

    Hope that helps.

    Glenn

    #6148 Reply

    Dan Melker
    Spectator

    Glenn,
    What makes this procedure so successful was the lack of bleeding and contamination for the restoration to be placed. It would have been difficult to get such a result with any other instrument!
    TOTALLY sound BIOLOGIC principles!
    Your buddy Danny

    #6160 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Hi Danny…thanks. I have learned alot but I still have a long ways to go. I honestly dont say that a bur or cord or anything else is poorer than a laser.

    I will tell you an interesting story on really why I post this stuff. I am at the Nash Institute and most people there (last weekend) had the laser for 1 year or less.

    They were only doing hard tissue procedures (teeth preps) and none were using the laser for soft tissue, endo or bone.

    If you have it and can do a little more with the laser while following biologic principles then great.

    Now I will say that there is alot of the esthetic guys who are now using the laser for esthetic cases with alot of bone relief closed flap.

    I actually done have that much of a problem for a localized area if you can see it, if the patient is not a periodontal nightmare, if you can feel the bone with the instrument etc.

    I think that sometimes its difficult with a laser handpiece to get parallel to the tooth structure to relieve the bone properly and the pen type handpiece does help in this area.

    Anyways, I am off to read your PM.

    Glenn

    #6149 Reply

    Dan Melker
    Spectator

    Glenn,
    There are 2 possible problems with CLFCL that I see.
    1. Everyone has a different opinion about the bone and causing or preventing troughing.
    2. An area that noone has considered but myself because of the way I do surgery is the CEJ’s. They are so irregular from tooth to tooth (adjacent teeth) How does one correct that problem when they cannot see it?
    I have a case where it is both AAE and APE in the anterior. #8 has APE and #9 has AAE.
    I have many cases with enamel projections on anterior teeth.
    the question is if you have to have a BW which is paraboilc to the CEJ how is that possible with the above circumstances?
    As you and I talked, Dave Hornbrook has new tips and is doing CLFCL. I believe I am supposed to get his DVD he made. I hope he is successful because it would be the best for everyone.
    Again, if those doing CLFCL could see all the problems that I see with the CEJ’s maybe they would reevaluate the technique. I have absolutely no problem with the laser use on soft tissue and bone just the visiblity factor to correct all the problems.
    Again Glenn your work is astounding!
    Danny

    #6151 Reply

    Dan Melker
    Spectator

    <a href="http://www.dentaltown.com/gold/case.asp?MemberType=Gold&id=2402&pwd=&catID=&username=&keyword=&search=latest&absPage=1&shopperid=D6D6222B2D08A8DF491602433D9A18EE

    I” target=”_blank”>http://www.dentaltown.com/gold&#8230;.8EE

    I do not know if this is the appropiate place for this post but the above thread is conventional surgery of AAE with a bur. Those that think I am against the laser should look at my comments on the above thread. Dental Student presented the case and as semms to be the usual case everyone loved it.
    But if we look closely there are familar problems:
    1. Troughing of the bone on distal buccal of #5 and #6.
    2. Too much bone removal for BW
    3. WAy too much festoonig of bone. Look at #11 and buccal area. Prominent root and future problems of dehiscence or fenestration.
    If that aggressive procedure could be redone with a laser it would have been better off. Too much bone removal is far worse than too little.
    Noone can accuse me of being against the use of the laser, just the procedures that are sometimes undertaken.
    Truly a great thread to learn from over on DT. Funny the Dental Student picked up on everything and realized what was done wrong!
    Thanks,
    Danny

    #6161 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Danny, tell me how you suture these cases. I just cant figure out how it is done.

    Thanks

    Glenn

    #6150 Reply

    Dan Melker
    Spectator

    Glenn,
    The suture technique is called the Hollywood suture.
    Your first penetration with the needle is through the buccal flap , then through the lingual flap and about 1-2mm back out the buccal flap away from the tip of the papilla. Then tie off the knot. When going through the buccal flap you come from the underneath side and out.
    I assume you are talking about the thread above.
    I do not suture that way. I like to tack the suture to periosteum which is a whole different technique all together.
    However the above technique does work fine if you have tissue that lays back just coronal to the cej. If not then periosteal suturing is better.
    Thanks,
    Danny

    #6152 Reply

    Dan Melker
    Spectator

    <a href="http://www.dentaltown.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=30978&forumID=47&catID=36&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={7B15B26D-B67C-4DA9-A2CA-A02555CE3A47}

    Glenn,” target=”_blank”>http://www.dentaltown.com/idealbb&#8230;.>Glenn,
    Anterior case that was really difficult because of of probing up to 10mm. trying to keep papilla height. Notice between 8 and 9 , 2 sutures to keep papilla height. The other case was simple because the palatal tissue was not flapped.
    Danny

    #6156 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Hi Danny: For the Hollywood suture (and I apologize if this is just very basic stuff) , do you start on the buccal in the papilla or 1-2 mm away. You go through the interproximal space to the palatal and then back through the space and tie out the knot on the buccal.

    I was thinking that if you exit on the buccal at the end 1-2mm away from the initial entry level doesnt that pull your flap Upwards a little.

    Thanks again for the dumb question , just trying to think how I can improve my next case.

    Glenn

    #6153 Reply

    Dan Melker
    Spectator

    Hi Danny: For the Hollywood suture (and I apologize if this is just very basic stuff) , do you start on the buccal in the papilla or 1-2 mm away. You go through the interproximal space to the palatal and then back through the space and tie out the knot on the buccal.
    GO DOWN ABOUT 3MM. FROM THE TIP OF THE PAPILLA THAT YOU ARE SUTURING. ENTER WITH THE SUTURE FROM THE BUCCAL. PULL THE NEEDLE THROUGH AND THEN ENTER THE LINGUAL PAPILLA FROM THE LABIAL SIDE AND EXIT THE LINGUAL SIDE OF THE PAPILLA. NOW ENTER THE BUCCAL PAPILLA ABOUT 1MM. CORONAL TO WHERE YOUR FIRST SUTURE WENT THROUGH BUT ENTER FROM THE LINGUAL SIDE OF THE FLAP. NOW YOU CAN TIE THE KNOT ON THE BUCCAL. USE 5-0 GUT. VERY IMPORTANT, HOLD THE PAPILLA IN PLACE TO THE LINGUAL PAPILLA FOR ABOUT 30SEC. TO 1MINUTE SO THERE WILL BE NO BLOOD CLOT AND YOU GET CLOSE ADAPTATION OF THE BUCCAL AND LINGUAL FLAPS HELPING TO PREVENT LOSE OF PAPILLA.
    HOPE THIS HELPS,
    DANNY

    #6164 Reply

    brucesown
    Spectator

    Hi There;

    The hollywood suture you are talking about sounds an awful lot like a vertical mattress suture.  You will find that one in the textbooks.

    #6154 Reply

    Dan Melker
    Spectator

    Report this post to a moderator

    Hi There;

    The hollywood suture you are talking about sounds an awful lot like a vertical mattress suture. You will find that one in the textbooks.

    Mattress sutures go in a horizontal direction not vertical.
    Danny

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