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  • #3428 Reply

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hi all,
    Tried something new today. 9 yr old w/ recurrent caries distal of b. Pt didn’t want to be numbed up.
    Bathed tooth ~45 sec B&L Waterlase 1.75 50/50 defocused.
    Removed old amalgam with high speed handpiece. Re entered tooth with laser and removed decay with laser and slow speed handpiece. Placed composite.
    Sorry no pictures -my wireless intraoral cam is good enough for patient education but not alot else.

    Got a blurry picture – can see size of old amalgam and caries.
    http://www.rwebstudio.com/preprep.JPG

    #11248 Reply

    Robert Gregg DDS
    Spectator

    Cooool……that’s good laser adjunctive dentistry and a great service to your patients, Ron!cool.gif

    #11239 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Fabulous Ron! Great job, and of course, thanks for sharing, helping us to learn great things.
    Mark

    #11251 Reply

    Swpmn
    Spectator

    Great idea, Ron.

    Anyone have a theory on the physiological mechanism behind anesthesia using the “defocused” technique? How does the laser energy numb the tooth when we bathe for 45 secs to a minute?

    Bob, can you help with your long term laser knowledge?

    Al

    #11246 Reply

    Patricio
    Spectator

    Thanks to all for your helpful comments. I enjoyed the article from out friend from Montana. I look forward to preping a tooth in the near future.

    I was thinking today how nice it is to anesthetise with the laser and then to use the electric hing and the slow speed as needed. With rare discomfort felt by the patient. I get a kick out of asking how it went and they all say that laser is great. They do not even know I used a drill since the familiar high speed whine is gone.

    I notice at 1.5 w I am getting brown spots am I using to little water? At this point I do not remember the preset but it is the standard set by the Biolase tech. I also notice with the high magnification the depth of field is less obvious so I find myself reaching for the slow speed so I can feel what I am doing. Does confidence build with time as to the depth of field? Again thanks for all the help.
    Pat

    #11244 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Hi Pat….what magnification are you using.

    Brown stain is typically when it occurs in the dentin…….

    1. Suction to close to the laser tip (water not hitting tooth)
    2. Water spray inadequate and therefore increase water.
    3. To small a trough (using a small tip ) and creating a narrow channel that the water cant get into the trough.

    THe problem is that brown is not enough water to cool the tooth and then its YEOWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The closeness of the high volume suction has not been discussed but on video I can show that if you are too close then you get brown spots and the water doesnt hit the tooth…….just goes up the suction.

    The microscope helps with this and in addition with the monitor hooked up to the video , my assistant can see it and quickly moves back before the patient starts getting uncomfortable.

    I will say that I dont think the magnfication is responsible for the problem with seeing decay. The water rehydrates the tooth and suddenly the decay doesnt look orange. I often use small round burs in large decayed areas to confirm decay removal and in addition it is difficult to remove soft mushy decay with the laser.

    I use a sharp spoon or a small round bur most times without pain. I use the laser afterwards to remove the smear layer and make sure the dentin is decontaminated (perhaps the correct term is bacterial reduced), and the smear layer is gone.

    Hope that helps, I am off to Scottsdale for the weekend to lecture at the inaugral Congress of Microscope Enhanced Dentistry meeting.

    Cya next week.

    Glenn

    #11240 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    First of all, thanks Pat. Second of all, thanks Glenn for your reply, it’s right on. Third of all, thanks Ron, I did a amalgam removal, without anesthesia today as well. Only difference is I used 6w for my usual 1min to 90 sec first, then used the high speed to remove the amalgam, went back to the laser to remove decay and prepare tooth for composite restoration (it was a class I), and it was very easy. My assistant gave me a high five, she’s been wanting me to do this for some time now, your post made me do it! Thanks! Al, as far as the mechanism of action, there is really no sure fire way to find out how it is done, BUT the theory is the reduction of the sodium/potassium pump near the odontoblast/pulp interface. It seems like that makes sense, and at the WCLI in Nice, we discussed it for some time, but no one could really figure a way to really “test” this theory. It sure would be interesting to see what goes on histologically, physiologically at that exact area when defocused laser energy is applied like we do. Anyhow, great posts everyone, let’s keep learning!
    Mark

    #11233 Reply

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Mark,
    Glad the amalgam removal was easy (I was ready to high five everbody in my office also). I assume with the 6W that this was a permanent tooth? Do you stay as high with your settings for primary teeth?

    #11241 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Yes Ron, it was #18. As far as deciduous teeth, I start out defocused at 5W, and then drop to 3W or less before I start any ablation activity. They are so easy to work on, and I notice how children rarely feel anything at all with the waterlase.
    Thanks,
    Mark

    #11247 Reply

    Patricio
    Spectator

    Glen,
    Thanks very much for your reply. I am using Zeiss 3.5 with a light. The suction things feels right and I will watch the HVS. I notice the water is 7% so it would not take much to deflect the water.

    Today I had a gentleman who had lost half of a large class II on #19. I Bathed the tooth at 1.5w for 30 seconds and entered the exposed area to deepen the anesthesia then I drilled out the rest of the amalgam and finished with the laser. What a joy to send this patient out the door in short order and without the numb jaw. He felt a small pain at one point when I hit bottom under the amalgam but he felt the trade off was well worth it. Thanks to you guys I am gaining more confidence at the higher power. I notice if I watch the body language and switch to the round bur to clean the area when some sensation is developing comfort seems to settle back in and I can begin again with the laser and maybe reduce powere a little if I wish just avoiding the now preped sensitive area.

    Ron, The video you set up is now up on my web site. It does take about 20 seconds to load at 56K. I will put a note there so the viewer knows what to expect. I am getting patients who find us in the phone book but are sold by our web site. We are tracking every new patient and finding several sources. One of the best is a lady who just decided t make us her project.

    Pat

    #11234 Reply

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Another amalgam removal-
    Receptionist had old DO amalgam on 13 with recurrent ,moderately deep decay, disto-lingual. Asked if we could do it ‘like the kid yesterday’ .
    Bathed tooth 5.25 90/90 for 1 minute. High speed removal of amalgam. Because of limited time (staff gets cancellation time for their work)decided to rebathe tooth w/ laser again 5.25 90/90 and finished prep with high and low handpieces, rather than laser. Pt only felt slight sensation at very end when I went subgingival. Later told me that if I had any more to do there she would have wanted to rebathe with laser , not inject.
    I kept expecting her to want to be numbed up, but even prepping at the DEJ -no pain

    It seemed like I could prep for an amount of time roughly equivilent to the time that was spent bathing the tooth. For those of you doing amalgam removal , how about keeping track of time bathing the tooth with the laser vs. prep time and see if we can find a correlation?

    #11242 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Count me in! What a great post. I am so impressed. I will keep track too. That was so cool to do yesterday. Thanks Ron.
    Mark

    #11249 Reply

    Robert Gregg DDS
    Spectator
    QUOTE
    Anyone have a theory on the physiological mechanism behind anesthesia using the “defocused” technique?  How does the laser energy numb the tooth when we bathe for 45 secs to a minute?

    Bob, can you help with your long term laser knowledge?

    Al–

    The answer is:  nobody really knows.

    The answer Mark gave is the understanding we accepted in-the-olden-days, and is as good an answer as we have today.

    I think it is probably a combination of phenomenon’s.  Like Mark said, the cell membranes appear to become more permeable to calcium, sodium, potassium.  Same with nerve cells in the pulp.

    Dr. Paul Bradley from the UK would say that the light has a direct effect on non-mylenated C-fibers in modulating or eliminating a pain impulse. Possibly through inhibition of protein systhesis of pain chemicals.

    My partner and I have theorized that proteins involved in localized pain in tissue are denatured and inactivated.

    Russian researcher Tina Karu has done a lot of work trying to understand the cellular basis and nature of LLLT (Low Level Laser Therapy)–aka biostimulation.  She has written a book that I think can be ordered on Amazon.com.

    Some anti-laser people like Doug Dederich, DDS, MS, PhD, B.F.D., Head of perio at LSU has a theory we are coagulating pulps, and that’s why we can desensitize teeth and numb them before prepping.  He clearly hasn’t used a pulsed Nd or Er:YAG clinically.  If he had, he would have observed the sensation of teeth returns following laser analgesia–sometimes before we are through prepping!

    From my experience and talking with thoughtful and sincere folks like Bradley, it seems to be most effective (limited?) to the infrared, both near, mid, as well as far.  For example, blue/green Argon was very disappointing in numbing tissue.

    You know, if you all want to take your tooth numbing one step further, try numbing the tissue near the Greater Palatine Nerve or the Incisive Canal next time you need to numb the palatal tissues.  You can even paint on topical  and lase for better uptake and effect.  Nice for “pain-free” palatal injections!

    Great question.  No great answers.  But Dederich’s theory is pure poppycock!

    I don’t know he mechanism for symptomatic relief when I scratch an itch–I do know it works, however anecdotally that may be….

    Bob

    #11236 Reply

    Anonymous
    Guest
    QUOTE
    Quote: from Robert Gregg DDS on 6:19 am on Nov. 8, 2002

    Some anti-laser people like Doug Dederich, DDS, MS, PhD, B.F.D., Head of perio at LSU has a theory we are coagulating pulps, and that’s why we can desensitize teeth and numb them before prepping.  He clearly hasn’t used a pulsed Nd or Er:YAG clinically.  If he had, he would have observed the sensation of teeth returns following laser analgesia–sometimes before we are through prepping!  
    Bob

    Pulpal thermal responses to an erbium,chromium: YSGG pulsed laser hydrokinetic system.
    Rizoiu I, Kohanghadosh F, Kimmel AI, Eversole LR.
    UCLA School of Dentistry, USA.Oral Surg Oral Med Oral Pathol Oral Radiol Endod 1998 Aug;86(2):220-3
    RESULTS: Pulpal temperatures associated with the hydrokinetic system either showed no change or decreased by up to 2 degrees C. Wet bur preparations resulted in a 3 degrees to 4 degrees C rise. With dry bur preparations, a 14 degrees C rise in temperature was recorded.

    #11245 Reply

    Patricio
    Spectator

    Glenn,

    We moved the suction a little to see if that would reduce the brown spots during preparation at 1.5w. while doing incisal edges etc. This definitely helped. I have also increased the water from 7% to 12-15% and this seems to have the same effect.
    Pat

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