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  • #3512 Reply

    2thdoc
    Spectator

    Anyone else besides Mark attempted crown preps?
    I noticed he starts out at very high settings(6W 90/75) , defocused for anesthetic effect. This makes me wonder how many users start high and decrease settings like Mark, and how many start very low (like Bill Chen)?I’ve always started low and worked up.

    #12017 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Hi Newbie,
      I just returned from France and the World Clinical Laser Institute meeting, and I chatted with Bill Chen about our differing ways of “anesthetizing” teeth. I have not tried his way before, and am going to, but the way I use my Waterlase, it works. From the crown/veneer preps to the regular ole class I-V’s. The only time I start lower is usually on an abfraction area, that is already sensitive. I also have heard that Bill Grieder in Florida always uses 6W as well. It would be a good study to see what is more or less effective. Like I said, I have had very good, no, great success using this method. I haven’t used anesthetic on any patient I have used the Laser on in the last 8 months. So far so good.
    Regards,
    Mark

    #12019 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Ok, I goofed,Iput Newbie on the front of the message, so I am embarrased! In front of everyone. Oh well, please forgive my ignorance in my first posting attempt here on this board. SOrry 2thdoc! However, I am willing to share with those who want to in this forum. So keep the posts coming, let’s all learn from one another!
    Mark aka, Newbie 😉

    #12009 Reply

    Anonymous
    Guest

    Mark, enjoyed the article.
    Just tried using the laser, higher settings 1st , defocused. Can’t believe how much faster things went with no discomfort. Did 30 occl , moderately deep,1/3 width of tooth.Patient didn’t even blink.
    THANKYOU!
    When you use the laser defocused for the ‘anesthetic’ effect do you just go over the area to be prepped or over the whole tooth( i.e.,if prepping occlusal do you go over the B&L defocused)?

    #12015 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    You are welcome Ron. I love it when we ALL share our ideas, to help eachother get better! I go over the whole tooth, Occlusal surface, Buccal and lingual, just take the time, be patient, to use the whole minute or so to get the tooth “numb”, and then go for it. I really “Bathe” the tooth in the laser energized water to get the effect. I hope this helps!
    Mark

    #12028 Reply

    Patricio
    Spectator

    Hi friends,

    I am beginning to understand better. I have been starting slowly al la Chen on the first tooth and then I have been going to higher power on subsequent teeth with no negative response from the patient. I do defocus and come in slowly but have little trouble.

    Are you genrally working under high magnification for efficiency or is this not so necessary at higher power? I find the tip action to be a little bit of a loose canon in many situations ie. patients who move a little – lips, cheeks, tongue as well as difficult angles to reach which seem to require a lower setting for control. Any suggestions?

    Pat

    #12020 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Hi Pat,
    Great to hear from you. I use 4.0, and 6.0 loupes all the time. I never use my laser without using magnification, due to the fact of the pinpoint nature of its tissue ablation. One can really see what the laser energy is doing as well as if there is any collateral “damage” it is so minimal at best. I really honestly haven’t had any!! The laser is so safe that tongue and cheeks and lips just don’t get in the way. I also have fantastically trained dental assistants who really know how to keep the field of view open for me, and when we can’t we just get out the rubber dam. Hope this helps. Keep trying and let us know how you are doing, and anything you might be doing to help US out here ok?
    Thanks,
    Mark

    #12027 Reply

    Patricio
    Spectator

    Thanks Mark,
    I turned up the energy today and defocused as suggested. Due to your support I was more confident and things went well. I have been using 3.5 mag at all times and will consider more as I get used to them. I sure enjoy the light and wonder how I ever was able to see well in the old days. They are great for watching the electric handpiece at work as well. It has helped me learn the rate of speed and force for best efficency.
    thanks again,
    Pat

    #12031 Reply

    Swpmn
    Spectator

    Mark:

    Unfortunately I have not seen your article in Contemporary Esthetics.  Is there an online link to the article?  What issue of CE was the article published?

    Mark, can you please explain in detail your technique for anesthetizing teeth with the laser?  From what I understand, you start out at a high setting like 6 Watts and bathe the tooth facial, occlusal and lingual in a “defocused” mode.  By defocused you mean that the tip is some distance away from the tooth but how far in millimeters?  What specific tip are you using, e.g., tapered vs. non-tapered?  G6 sapphire?

    You then prep the tooth at 6W and 90% water and the unanesthetized patient does not feel any pain?  I have no interest in using the laser for crown preps but don’t most of the teeth you prep for crowns have a bunch of old amalgam?  What I would like to learn is your technique for successfully prepping Class I through V composites without anesthetizing the patient.

    Please help the seemingly few of us out there who have been very frustrated using the laser on unanesthetized patients.

    Al

    #12021 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Hi Al,
    The article is in the latest, October issue, of CERP. The link unfortunately is not in service. It would be [url=”http://www.dentallearning.com.”%5Dwww.dentallearning.com.%5B/url%5D Actually, for the detail you give on my technique for anethetizing teeth, is right on. I usually use, my favorite, G-4 tip, sometimes a G-6, but mostly a G-4 because of more energy available from that tip. I keep the tip about 9-10 mm above the tooth structure, making sure I am not creating any “white” spots on the enamel, because if I am, I am too close. One can readily see these if they are wearing loupes. I stress the magnification issue, like Glenn, because what we are doing for the most part is true microdentistry.
    I stay at 6W for about a minute or so, and gradually ease, patiently, into the area I want to start ablating, because with a G-4 tip, you can start ablating as far as 4-5 mm distance. As I gradually enter the enamel, and start seeing the dentin exposed, the tooth is getting more and more laser energy through the hydrokinetics, and getting more “numb” as I go. Once I get into the decay, if the patient is not feeling it, I keep going without changing the power level, if they are just beginning to feel it, I drop the power down to comfortable levels, usually 3.25-4W 40%air and water. It really does go fast. I really feel that being patient during the “bathing” process is so important. Take that minute or so. The alternative is using anesthetic, waiting 10 min or so, then using the drill, etc…and I don’t want to do that. It really is so quick this way, at least for me. As far as crowns are concerned, if they have amalgam, yes, conventional methods apply, but if composite, or fractured virgin teeth, I use the laser, WITHOUT anesthetic. I haven’t had to use anesthetic yet for any crown or veneer prep so far. I hope this helps! Anytime I can help just let me know, and the same, if you have any handy tricks up your sleeve, let us all know, it would be great for us all to continue to share and learn from one another!
    Mark

    #12025 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Mark………great stuff. We use different lasers but I love how you brought something for everyone to try.

    I will try it tomorrow with the continuum product.

    HOw was the meeting in Nice, and how many attended.

    Thanks for a great read.

    Glenn

    #12016 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Glenn,
    As always, thanks. I am humbled, believe me. Nice was great, really attended well, by over 10 different countries. The lectures were awesome, and there is some wonderful new procedures being done with Erbium lasers. There were over 150 dentists/staff there in attendance with virtually no one missing meetings/lectures. It was so refreshing to have such a wonderful forum to present new and intriguing ideas. I just absolutely enjoy when we all share and learn from eachother. This laser dentisty we are all doing, is so incredible, and the responses from our patients, physically and mentally is so rewarding. I sure hope this catches on, it should. It is our responsibility to help this happen, Continuum, Biolase, whatever works in ones hands, we need to teach ourselves, and those who are new what we know. I thank you especially for all you have shared with your microscope, and your laser cases. All are incredibly educational for us all. Thanks Glenn.
    Mark

    #12029 Reply

    Swpmn
    Spectator

    Thanks Mark!!!!

    Today I “stole” a copy of the October CERP from an associate and plan to study your article this weekend.

    Thanks for the 9-10mm info on tip distance as I was thinking 3 or 4 mm.  You believe that the G4 provides more energy.  That’s interesting as I have been using G6 tips. How do you know this, does the G4 tip ablate faster than the G6 tip?  In your hands, the G4 does not cause more sensitivity than the G6?

    In regards to magnification, I use DFV 2.5 fixed loupes with a headlamp and I can see really well as I’ve had that crazy laser eye surgery!!!!  This should make Glenn happy to see that at least I’m a baby magnifier!!

    Al

    (Edited by Swpmn at 10:25 pm on Oct. 25, 2002)

    #12022 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Al,
     Thanks, hope you enjoy the article. The G-4 tip is shorter, and generates a bit more energy,and does cut a bit faster, and if not careful, yes, one can cause a bit of sensitivity with it, which is why I defocus for such a long time before slllooowwwly bringing it into a more focused mode to ablate. I love the shorter tip, and have had great results with it. All of my crown and veneer preps have been with that tip, I change to the G-6 tip for interproximal margination on molar crowns, due to the longer  length of the tip to get to that marginal area. That’s about it. Hope this helps.
    I gaurantee Glenn will be happy that you are using magnification. He really is at the top of our class, scopes and lasers, we can learn alot from him. I hope you check out some of his cases he places on the web, they have been great. Have a great weekend.
    Mark

    #12026 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Al: great to see that you are using magnification. I am a big believer that those tips are small, glass and you need to be close to get proper ablation. In contact and you ruin the tip, with the Continuum laser its 1/2 to 1 mm away and if you are to far away it wont cut.

    I know a few things scientifically about this. First of all the resolution of the human eye is 200 microns or .2mm.
    If you have two lines seperated by less than this the human eye will only see it as one. The tips are small, Continuum makes a 400 micron tip and its quartz and clear and in addition you need to hold it 0.5 mm away.

    Now you realize that this is getting tough without magnification.

    Sometimes guys will say to me…….its not cutting and I will smile. They are too far away and cant see it.

    In addition the tactile feedback cycle is fast but primitive from a neurological standpoint. You feel the pain of your flesh on the oven before you see it smoking!

    Visual feedback uses the cortex but is slower by about 5 times . That is why alot of guys are fine with a bur in contact on the tooth, they can feel and see it working their is a combination.

    Now if you are in non contact mode with an erbium laser you can ONLY rely on visual feedback. There is very little tactile sensation unless you stop, touch the tooth back off and start ( which I suggest for novices is a good way of determining your distance).

    Otherwise magnification really helps and Mark can vouch for the fact that with the laser, 2.5X is better than nothing. 4.0 is better than 2.5 and 6X is better than 4.0X

    You are doing great and with higher mag you will find an improvement in seeing the laser cutting and in addition in knowing things like when you are through into the dentin, when there is not enough water spray, when the decay spreads laterally, when the suction is too close and suctioning up the water before it hits the tooth resulting in pain and discoloration in dentin (brown spots)

    Hope all these tips help. In addition under high mag you can see when your tip is chipped and if you have high mag you can use a polishing porcelain stone to flatten off the tip and reuse it!

    Just some idle ramblings but something that working at 10-16X mag has showed me.

    I feel fortunate sometimes to be able to see what I do, but I tell you, I couldnt work without the scope doing laser dentistry. You really need magnfication in my opinion to make it work effectively…….

    Enough rambling from me.

    Glenn

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