Forums Erbium Lasers General Erbium Discussion Decay around amalgam

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  • #2809 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Hi there folks: I did a simple Class V on the palatal of a maxillary second molar (we extracted the first molar around a year ago) and noted this decay. This lady is in her late 70s and didnt want anesthetic and has been quite ill , so I just did a patch on the tooth.

    Note how the tip gets black from the amalgam and altough you cant cut amalgam with the laser you can work around it.

    Photos shot through the scope, restored with Dyract Flowable.

    Just something to look at……..

    Glenn

    Resize of Class V around amalgam.jpg

    #6227 Reply

    greg holm
    Spectator

    I always appreciate your pics Glen. Was that fiber damaged by this proceedure? Is there an electrical current or something generated here?
    Greg

    #6238 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Yes the tip is not as good anymore , I think that the scatter back from the amalgam damages the tip. It does squat to the amalgam but it does damage the tip.
    Maybe Bob can explain why but the bottom line is dont do it!!

    Thanks for the compliments, if my pics help a few people “See the Light” ( pun intended) than I guess it is all worth while.

    Glenn

    #6230 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Glenn,
    you are right, Bob probably knows for sure. When you point a laser pointer at a reflective surface, what happens? The same HAS to happen to our wavelengths I would think. Energy is directed BACK into the tip, thereby ruining it. If we (Biolase users) still use the tip to finish, once it is “spoiled”, we can blow our fibers. What about your DeLight? Does that happen to your laser? The reason Biolase lasers blow trunk fibers when that happens is in the mirror in the end of the handpiece. The mirror becomes “blackend” and the laser engery then “overloads” the trunk fiber, and then WHAMMO, good bye!
    Here is what the mirror looks like as you look through the end of the handpiece…

    2DSCF0211.jpg

    Here’s what it looks like after it’s “blacked” by using a spoiled tip….(hope I got these right!)
    2DSCF0211 copy.jpg

    Hope this helps the Waterlase users! We should add this post to the Maintenance page Ron, can you do that?
    Mark

    #6231 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    PS…looks like it was an accurate post of pictures. MAKE SURE YOU LOOK THROUGH THE END OF THE HANDPIECE WITH MAGNIFICATION. It is the ONLY way you can really see this.
    Mark

    #6240 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    It doesnt do anything to the Continuum……..my fiber has been working for almost 3 years.

    Glenn

    #6242 Reply

    Swpmn
    Spectator

    In my opinion, this thread and subsequent replies are some of the most significant yet posted on the Forum. This thread and photos should be printed and saved by anyone using or considering purchase of a “hard tissue” Erbium laser.

    Use of the Erbium around metals and old metal-containing bases/restorations damages the laser “tips”. In the case of some Erbiums it also damages the reflective mirror in the “head” of the “handpiece”. Damage to the mirror results in eventual failure of the trunk fiber delivery system – my technician explained this to me after my last trunk fiber failure. I’ve suspected this for over a year but finally have some official confirmation.

    And it’s not just as simple as avoiding usage of the laser around amalgam or PFM crown margins. I notice “sparking” on removal of old composites and old bases/liners. Until you begin removal, there is no way to predict whether the old composite/base/liner will cause sparking. With mirrored handpiece systems, if you see sparking, you can be assured you are causing damage to the tip, mirror and eventually the trunk fiber delivery system.

    Dr. Colonna has done us a great service by providing the first photos I have seen which document damage to a mirrored handpiece delivery system. Those who use or are considering purchase of such systems would be wise to print these photos and check your handpieces on a regular basis.

    Al

    #6236 Reply

    Glenn van As
    Spectator

    Hi Allen: I did that decay around the amalgam last week and here are three pics of my fiber window that I shot today. There are air holes and water holes but no damage to the window there.

    Glenn

    [img]https://www.laserdentistryforum.com/attachments/upload/Resize of DSCN5044.JPG[/img]

    [img]https://www.laserdentistryforum.com/attachments/upload/Resize of DSCN5045.JPG[/img]

    [img]https://www.laserdentistryforum.com/attachments/upload/Resize of DSCN5042.JPG[/img]

    #6243 Reply

    Swpmn
    Spectator

    That’s pretty cool, Glenn. So the tip just pops right into the end of the fiber?

    How much did that burned out tip set you back?

    Al

    #6232 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Also Glenn, is there a mirror to “foul” in your handpiece? As we have a mirror in ours to deflect the laser energy out the tip at a 90 degree angle. Here is a picture of a “fouled” tip.
    1DSCF0212.jpg

    You can also see the angle, like a bur in a high speeds angle, the tip exits from the handpiece. Disadvantage, mirror, advantage, feels like regular dental handpiece, which alot of people like. I personally would love to have both a straight and the conventional laser handpiece (hopefully Biolase reads this board huh?)
    Mark

    #6228 Reply

    greg holm
    Spectator

    Do you take those pics thru a microscope Mark, like Glen does. They are awesome!
    So, the strait tip handpiece of continuum delight is less subject to amalgam damage than the 90deg handpiece of waterlase?
    Greg

    #6233 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Good question Greg. Glenn? I am not sure. As far as photo’s, I am using a Fujifinpix S-2 digital camera, it is really great. I wouldn’t be without it! Ross Nash turned me on to it, I can’t thank him enough!

    #6241 Reply

    Swpmn
    Spectator

    Man, is this not the coolest thread or what? We gotta get the word out so people can see these images.

    I don’t know jack about engineering, but I’m going to go out on a limb and propose a theory:

    Biolase developed a “handpiece” delivery system because they knew this would feel very familiar to dentists. If anyone ever looked at the ADT Cavilase it was developed similarly with a “handpiece”. Problem is, you can’t bend a trunk fiber 90 degrees, so Biolase put a mirror in the “head” of the handpiece to reflect the laser beam down the tip and into the treatment area.

    Unfortunately, the mirror gets burned or pitted when one touches a metal-containing restoration/base/liner because as Mark said, the laser energy is reflected back up the tip and onto the mirror. As the dentist continues to use the instrument, the outgoing laser energy hits the damaged mirror and is reflected back into the trunk fiber, thus resulting in trunk failure.

    But why use a “handpiece” mirrored delivery system at all? The shape of the handpiece casing is what was designed in the 1950’s to contain air turbines or the same as is now used in electric handpieces for gears. I don’t like the laser “handpiece” because it is hard for me to see around the “head” – particularly because it is set at 90 degrees unlike modern air/electric handpieces.

    Crawling further out on the limb:

    Glenn’s ConBio DeLight trunk fiber does not fail because there is no mirror(although there is an optional “handpiece”). Glenn uses a “pen-like” delivery system, looks similar to an electro/radiosurge unit(he showed me diagrams). I propose that in the ConBio DeLight the trunk fiber does not fail because there is no mirror and the tip acts like a “shear pin” or “weakest link”. When the tip is damaged there will be a reduction in cutting efficiency but no mirror-reflected damage back into the trunk fiber.

    Just a crazy theory. Ya’ll let me know what you think and let’s continue this great dialogue!

    Al

    #6234 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Al,
    I am with you on this one. I think you are absolutely correct as far as the Biolase design, and reasons behind it. I have seen a straight handpiece they have developed, but don’t know if there is a mirror in it. I would think there isn’t, wouldn’t make sense to need one. I know I would use the straight handpiece quite often. I don’t think that the energy from a pitted or blackend mirror reflects back, but instead, the energy has no where to go, so IT backs up, heats up, and then the fiber goes. I will find out from Andy, as I will see him in Salt Lake on Friday during my lecture, and I promise I will get back to all of you then. You are right, great thread!
    Mark

    #6235 Reply

    2thlaser
    Spectator

    Here is a picture of a tip, that has a split starting at about 8 o’clock, it runs from the edge of the tip to the inside edge. Very hard to see without magnification. THESE are the tough ones to see, shine your operatory light through them, that seems to help. (like transillumination).
    DSCF02142.jpg

    Mark

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